Nerf Zetterburn in a Meaningful Way#75

Let me preface that I very much appreciate the work done by the team to keep the game balanced, they’re doing a great job at it for the most part. However, I think Zetterburn has a few aspects to his kit that are too strong, even for his archetype.

I understand that he’s pretty much the main character and that Dan has said that everyone is balanced around him, but he keeps getting slaps on the wrists on every single patch where he’s touched. Notably, he’s pretty unanimously considered to be top 1 according to most people you talk to, which just baffles me why the problems with his overtuned options haven’t been changed for so long.

As for the wrist slap in question, its certainly a start but that’s all it is. Dair’s size has always been a painpoint for people fighting against this character, but more than that is its sheer safety on shield when paired with shine. I feel that even a spacie has to keep a fair amount of awareness in terms of spacing aerials, and Dair just kind of didn’t get the memo on that.

I go more in depth on the things I’d like to see changed about Zetter in this post on the previous board version: https://rivals-of-aether-ii-patch-160.nolt.io/1090 but I want to get my thoughts across in hopes that the devs make some changes to him that actually matter.

If you’ve read through all of this, thanks! And if you’re a dev, extra thanks!

Grow up

@Cometonline. You are on a video game forum for feedback complaining about negative feedback.
It’s fine if they want to express their opinion. They wrote it very politely even

They’re just gonna give him a tiny nerf but like shriking his down air by a single pixel and then be like “we listened to you we nerfed him!” but they just want him to be an overpowered maniac so the melee fox players can use him and see he’s top tier

Since the devs seem to be happy with zetterburn’s tools at a high level, at this point I’d be content if they just made him lighter so that he dies in fewer interactions at a lower level. He’s fast, has good kill power, and his hurtbox is on the smaller side, so a lighter weight doesn’t feel unjustified.

Lower weight, higher hitstun gravity could be helpful here. Allow him to keep his powerful offense, but make him pay for letting you in. Other characters that have overwhelming offense suffer in various ways. Etalus goes offstage and gets rinse-repeated for like 50 if he doesn’t outright die. Maypul and Olympia get smacked offstage easily thanks to their low weight and high gravity, and if they’re out of resources they just die for it. Orcane now has a more linear recovery that’s easier to trap around, making his higher weight more justifiable. Zetter has high enough weight and lives for a long time and seems less susceptible to combos than design notes describe, alongside having overwhelming offense that’s difficult to contest. He isn’t quite a touch of death character by any means, but he can nuke you in a couple of interactions.

I know the “he’s not the same as Fox” crowd are going to crucify me for the comparison, but he clearly takes notes from Fox’s design, so it’s worth considering the difference between them, and why Fox comes across as fair but Zetter doesn’t. Barring any discussion of input leniency making his gameplan easier than Fox’s (since the same thing applies to every character), he just doesn’t have the same level of “if you get in on him, you can make him hurt.” Playing as or against Fox in Melee feels like a delicate push and pull, because one bad interaction either way can blow up either side’s stock. One grab on Fox and he can die for it, one stray drill as Fox and the other guy can die for it. Zetter can’t nuke the other person as easily, but he can still do it, and he arguably has better tools for it than even Fox does (I think down/up throw into empowered up strong is a good substitute for up throw into up air, and also Zetter has a kill throw off the side). In contrast, he’s a lot harder to nuke in return. I don’t think his recovery is nearly as incontestable as some people claim, but it is rather good. Coupled with his higher weight, he doesn’t get out into a position where he has to use it as often, and beating it doesn’t usually put him far enough offstage to force him to do something different or kill him outright until higher percents or in certain matchups.

TL;DR, I think Zetter’s offense and recovery is fine, he just needs to get comboed easier and die earlier to make fighting him a bit fairer.

Then again, going the other way and tweaking his oppressive offense to make him an all rounder is also a route that could be taken, but maybe that would be better for the “echo fighter” version of him.

I actually suggested this in the last nolt board. The most recent ‘nerf’ zetterburn got is almost negligible. It doesn’t do anything to him. Again, I wouldn’t have a problem with all of this kill power, saftey, and pressure, if his recovery was nerfed (Like if the recovery were about the same as Wolfs) and I wouldn’t have a problem with the recovery if all his attributes were toned down a little bit.

Heck, you could keep EVERYTHING Zetterburn has, but there needs to be more stages where there isn’t a wall that characters can jump off of 24/7 (Like harbor), so you can edgeguard Zetterburn more consistently.

I could complain about other things, but I’m not going to as this post would turn into an essay, but something more needs to be done with this character.

I want to provide input on something about the down air nerf that isn’t really being commented on by anyone else, and which makes it less of a nerf than people might imagine (even if they’re imagining it being a tiny nerf already).

One of the primary use cases for the move is tech chasing, especially on platforms. While the size of the move did get nerfed, Zetterburn’s attributes did not. He’s still just as fast as he was before, making him able to close the same amount of distance himself. The other thing about the move that didn’t get nerfed is the recovery speed. The landing lag is still the exact same as it was before, which helps cover the times he misses the tech chase.

The thing that got changed that generally nullifies this range nerf is the overall decrease in tech roll speed and therefore distance across the cast. In opposition to this attack range decrease, Zetterburn now has to cover less ground to punish a tech roll, meaning he generally has an easier time of doing it now. Considering the move is otherwise untouched aside from the ground bounces (which isn’t even something that comes into play in this situation), this isn’t really a nerf at all. He is, in a sense, virtually unchanged from how he operated before.

This is why people are still asking for a nerf, or a tweak, or something. Zetterburn still has the same playbook he’s had for nearly a year now, and it still works just as well as it did back then, and even better since his players have had a chance to learn and master it. On the other hand, basically every other character has had to adapt to changes, usually nerfs (unless you’re Clairen) that have set them back. It’s starting to become very noticeable that there are certain characters who, despite having far more causes for people to not like fighting them, have received no meaningful adjustments. It’s just “hitbox shrunk by 2 pixels,” or “hurtbox slightly extended outward,” but never anything that makes the character have to play meaningfully different. Zetter is still “down air shine on shield, grab throw up strong.”

Miscellaneous Shaun This is exactly the issue I keep bringing up constantly with the balancing of this game, but get told off about. The favoritism. The fact that the community has asked for adjustments for more than a year now. The higher you climb in Ranked, the more you run into Zetterburn and Clairen, and for good reason. They are very strong, ridiculous in their design (Zetters entire kit having no flaws/weaknesses, Clairen’s TIPpers being half the sword). They are also safe investments.
All of this wouldn’t be so bad if it didn’t feel so incredibly frustrating playing against either. Dying at mid% to a fire detonation does not feel earned when Zetter can combo from a fire-inflicting move into a fire-detonating one. Then there is Clairen, where it’s harder to miss the Tipper than to hit them.