Z-Catching dramatically increases the fun and depth of expression with Slade.#295

I was told to make a post about this because its no secret that Slade is in a tough spot. While the character finds some love at lower levels of play, he is floundering at the top level where his playstyle has devolved into some of the slowest gameplay R2 has ever had. This is a combination of a LOT of factors and I wont claim to be able to address them all. I am honestly of the opinion that Slade as a whole needs a rework. As one of the very few Slades to reach aetherian and make a run with him in tournament, I feel somewhat justified in saying that. That being said, I know with how dev resources are being allocated and the amount of time you guys have this isnt super likely to happen, at least not any time soon. So I come bearing a quicker and perhaps more elegant option. Let Slade Z catch his items.

For those unfamiliar, z catching is when you z drop a held item and then instantly recatch it with an aerial, effecticely allowing the person holding the item to do an aerial with an item in hand. This tech has been in smash for a while but is notably absent from melee. In games like ultimate, it allows characters like Rob and Diddy Kong to extend combos in super unique ways, provided the player has the execution to z catch. This would open up a ton of options for Slade including new combo routes, new kill confirms, and new ways to interact with the opponent that arent just segregated to glide toss out of shield while also putting up an execution barrier. Most of all, z catching is just fun. It feels great to do (provided the catch window is large enough) and comes with built in counterplay. Items are VERY easy to clank with and catch with wavedash in R2 and that means that your opponent also has opportunities to utilize z catching in their pressure if they manage to steal an item which can also adds fun and some skill expression to playing against items.

This is an obvious buff to Slade. As the character who starts with the item in hand he is always going to be able to more flexibly use this mechanic. THAT BEING SAID, it is not SO STRONG as to break the character completely, opens up opportunities for the character to actually approach the opponent, and risks giving your opponent a VERY strong tool (that most chars already use better than Slade) should you miss. While z catching isnt necessarily a change id make to Slade if I were to rework the character myself, I think this change is the easiest and most elegant for making the character more fun and increasing the depth he brings to his game. Thanks for hearing me out!

-Nurse

Please🥺

Haven’t played a game with Z-catching but to me it sounds like a free value mechanic, because Z-drop has no commitment and that just adds an execution barrier to item play and it doesn’t look like a direction R2 is heading to.

Slade is already very tech demanding and Z-catch would make him even harder to play, while putting every other non-item character into a bigger disadvantage for not committing to learning items.

No Z-catch also opens more design space for item characters, allowing for creation of moves like Slade’s SideB, that is designed to give him more options while holding an item and would be less meaningful with Z-catch.

I like the idea of helping Slade out, howeeeeeeeeever,

I’m not a fan of z catching. It’s not fun to fight a Diddy who’s permanently got banana and also gets to play neutral.

I think there should be tradeoffs to pulling an item, and personally, I don’t want to go down the route of items being a really really strong avenue for the game.

But it’s all my personal opinion. I’d rather they go a different route to buff Slade.

I disagree it has no commitment. the hitbox for z drop items is tiny and you have to be right in the opponents face to hit them. You can’t do any tilts, grabs or dash attacks while holding items, and you can can’t do rising aerials if you want to recatch your item. No z catch means the only time you use item is glide toss out of shield, which is all Slade does. Z catch is really easy, you legit just press aerial immediately after z. This is coming from an ult link main

I appreciate the thoughtful reply, it is definetly a free value mechanic. It is meant to also function as a buff. As a tech demanding character I think its fine for Slade to have more that can be pushed. It adds a unique sense of mastery for those willing to put in the time, and paradoxically Slade is seeing the most success at mid levels right now where his tech is less important. For a change that is meant to target high level play i think it works in that sense. I also think its okay to expect folks to lab counterplay (some comfort with z catch) to get the full value out of items because the full value is higher than what Slade gets.

In Ultimate Diddy Kongs Side B is an example of a move that pushes boundaries (allowing for a grab) while holding an item and still compliments z catching. Slades side b acts as a grounded option as opposed to an aerial one and maintains a niche in that way. Link can throw a boomerang, young link shoots a combo starting arrow, float lets peach do aerials without z catching, and mega man can throw his item in 8 directions. There are still creative ways to add functionality even with items in hand. And to some degree, the north star of this suggestion is that z catching is fun.

This kind of goes hand in hand with what is said in the post but, this isnt my 100% preferred way to change Slade either. But to meaningfully buff Slade while also making him more engaging at a top level would require a TON of changes and a rework to some degree which I dont think there is dev time before. I think something like this is the compromise that keeps his current design vision in tact without making him broken.

You’re probably right in that it’s likely easier on the dev time to add z catching instead of a complete rework.

It’s definitely a personal preference thing, and if they do add it, my response would just be like “oh ok” and I’d continue practicing.

I believe in the devs. I just want them to have all the feedback so they can make informed decisions

Sounds like the perfect candidate for a gameplay modifier to better understand why it’s not currently implemented.

I disagree with Youngblood about it not adequately locking you out of attacks, as it does lock you out of grounded normals with or without zcatch. And, even without zcatch, youre not locked out of aerials ever either, as you can simply choose to drop the item. Items also have plenty of counterplay baked in already, as its trivally easy to catch them, and most/all items have a hurtbox you can interact with.

That said, this seems like a great game modifier to add! Let me prove myself wrong, if i am, by testing it!

You can already regrab the item with A. Can someone explain what mechanical difference there would be if you could use Z instead?

You can’t drop an item to catch it with an attack immediately - there’s a lockout that prevents it

@weaselsnore #1MinaBeliever This is as fast as I could get it, and I didn’t encounter a re-catch lockout.

You can only do so on hit of an item. Z-catch would allow you to do so anytime

I’m not sure I’d want Z-catch in this game. It would be a nice buff to Slade but does it really move the needle much on other character’s being stronger with his items? There’s other balance considerations like how much it would buff Gouie, or in instances of future characters like Mollo would have to be very heavily reimagined as a character due to how his bombs and aerials interacted in the first game.
That is to say I’m not really a fan of this mechanic on Link, R.O.B. or Diddy Kong but there is overall stronger defense and movement in this game compared to Smash Ultimate.

@weaselsnore #1MinaBeliever Oh okay. I assumed everyone was talking about after a z-drop hits an opponent, so I was very confused.

@ everyone:
I don’t think this is a reasonable buff for Slade tbh. Even though it makes his item use more flexible, I feel like it would put more emphasis on grabbing items and camping, since a stronger Item Held state = more incentive to pull items, meaning more Slades making distance all game to hold B, which is another complaint I’ve heard from people.

It also means everyone else has to learn yet another item tech just to play the Slade matchup, which makes him even more annoying to play against.