Etalus - Jump Cancel Neutral Special?#192

The shield damage change for this was really cool, admittedly, but given it has 64 frames of start-up, there’s really no counterplay to being parried other than using this as a meaty option on a get-up animation (particularly on a platform) if you’re trying to use this move offensively. Grandfather time himself could parry this move on reaction and there’s nothing the bear can do about it.

Knowing that somebody’s going to always go for parry if their eyes are open and they have the 5 start-up frames to do so, it’d be cool if there were a way to cancel the start up frames in a way to counterplay that on the Etalus side. I don’t know how it would be best implemented - mayhaps a very large window (think like 50-60 frames) that you can’t action out of, and as soon as the hammer starts to swing down, you can jump cancel it?

This would prevent abuse in most cases (50-60 frames of vulnerably standing there menacingly does have counterplay by those not jump scared by the move) while still providing extra utility to a move that’s far too niche for how cool and centralizing it is.

considering that it also gives him armor, and can sometimes challenge aerial opponents, it doesn’t need a mixup. It’s supposed to be a bad move with a lot of payoff.

I think it would be funny if it didn’t put him into hard parry stun, like a jab or projectile. It’d be far from intuitive but with how hard it is to land in the first place I think it makes sense

Yeah I don’t actually hate the idea of just giving it parry on jab properties; that would solve my biggest gripe with the move simply not having a place no matter how you fall with it.

That would be terrible unless you added a lot more endlag to the move. Having a campy etalus spam neutral b near ledge to cover the backside during the start up and then playing the jab parry mini-game while the parry happens, while the move is safe on shield, has very little endlag, and gives him armor on ice to keep him alive sounds like absolute torture.

Are we forgetting this move has 64 frames of uncancellable startup or

Well A, you’re turning into a 60 frame start up move with the junp cancel, and b. Due to the range, people aren’t going to want to trade with the hitbox, so the counterplay without the guaranteed parry would be to wait for it and not interact, which would make the move kind of boring to interact with. Some moves with crazy payoffs are meant to be bad, falcon punch and ice hammer are moves that are part of this archetype, and adding mixup for the sake of making the move good is a terrible idea. C. If you can jump cancel it, you get a scenario where etalus jumps or wavelands to ledge and does a getup fair punish.

Final verdict, etalus ice hammer, as bad as it is, already gives him armor, hits harder than kragg fsmash, and damn near breaks shields. Making it a mixup option even with the 60 frames of startup just adds a layer of unintuitive frustration to the matchup.

I’m going to double down on my original idea.

Allow jump cancel after 60 startup frames, or even just spot dodge/roll cancel after any number of frames. Jump cancel would not be broken inherently because 60 startup frames where you’re standing still is completely interactable. You can run up and do literally anything to stop this, and once people get used to it existing, it’s not really that unintuitive or even strong really.

If you run up and get hit by the slow ass hammer, that’s on you lol.

Justifying it’s current iteration as ‘bad moves exist’ in a game where it is literally the ONLY bad move is not reasonable justification to keep it the way it is.

Locking ice armor behind a bad move is just a feelsbad for the Etalus player for no real reason. I appreciate your feedback though nonetheless.